#19 "Dude, What Happened?!?!" Post #2

I really think some of the narrative of your journey would be helpful. The blood and guts, dirt and grime, joy and fulfillment of life experience contributes more to our journey that we sometimes realize. The decisions we make, the change we embrace - none of this happens in a vacuum. The narrative provides much of the context and shapes motivations and biases in a powerful way.


You said:
"I 'lost' my faith, when I discovered the rest of the world. The history, the religions, the philosophies. There are many common threads. The greatest of which seems to be biology."


This  is where things get truly fascinating for me, for I think it demonstrates powerfully how we tend to find what we're looking for. While I would not claim to have discovered the rest of the world (there's a lot of world out there still to discover for me), I have had a good bit of exposure. I've traveled. I've read. I've made a practice of reading books I disagree with. I've lived life. So, in what is I think a very real sense, I've discovered the world too. What's fascinating to me is that this discovery has only served to deepen my faith. Now that says nothing about me or you being right. It just highlights the fact that we tend to find what we're looking for. Now if what we find is connected to what we're looking for, then outcomes are very connected to motivations. These motivations, more than the arguments we use to justify our conclusions, are truly the cause of those conclusions. I think.


You said:
"This is a reasonable assumption. Particularly if you live in a time where science is a mystery. (Which would be right around the time the three major monotheisms were instigated). Regardless of any religious beliefs, it is an undeniable fact that we as humans have a desire and need to define our world. It is how we define ourselves! The most Atheistic scientist spends her life “defining” reality. This, I would argue, is derived from the same human impulse that creates religion. In other words, not an inclination to be despised, but like all tendencies, something to keep an eye on."


You previously quoted Pascal about the God shaped hole in our hearts. In this paragraph you call it the "human impulse" that moves us toward the religious and the spiritual. This explains much of human behavior and culture, doesn't it? There does seem to be a fairly universal movement toward finding meaning for our existence, discovering that our story exists within a larger story, an epic story, something cosmic and final. If there is a god, then that impulse was surely imbeded within us by this god to move us to seek this god. If there is no god, then this impulse is surely a cruel biological joke.


But the impulse itself does nothing to answer either possibility. It is a hunger. We must choose what we will eat. We decide what to do with that impulse. God's promise is that if we seek him, we will find him. The sad implication is that if we won't, we won't. We find what we're looking for.


And for those who are looking, there seems to be no end to the lengths God will go to make sure he's found. One of the interesting occurances in recent history involves the thousands of muslims who are coming to faith in Jesus because he is revealing himself to them in dreams. It's really amazing.


You also mentioned the era where science was a mystery as a time when mankind was more vulnerable to religion. I'm not sure I agree. Science is less a mystery now and religion abounds more than ever. Even the religion of science.

I believe religion is cultural

Definitely.

I believe Faith is personal, but informed by cultural experience. (Meaning that our own psychological profile combined with our cultural biases will combine to give us our disposition toward certain tenets).

Agreed.

I believe the “Truth” is beyond the capabilities of the human mind. (By “Truth” I mean any final dogmatic assertion put forth by ANY faith.)
This is, itself, a final dogmatic assertion.

I believe ALL religions are man made enterprises that have served the powerful and subjugated the weak. Furthermore, they are an easy fix to finding a "purpose" in life.

This too is a very dogmatic assertion. And it seems a bit narrow. Can you not think of a single instance where Christians have served the weak and subjugated the powerful? Not one single Christian who has loved and sacrificed self for others? I can think of lots and lots.

I believe ethical and moral behavior are intrinsically self-evident in a healthy human brain. (Therefore, assuring the health of human brains is in our collective best interest).

Agreed. C.S. Lewis deals extensively with this reality in "Mere Christianity", which I know you've read. That they are self evident is apparent.

That we typically know the right but do the wrong also seems apparent. If we are to be held finally accountable for this, then there is a need for a savior. If we are not to be held finally accountable for this, then do what you will! But even this (no final accountability) falls flat to me, for a self-evident right and wrong that is meaningless appears to me as arbitrary.

I believe the core of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the same. Criticism of one, from the perspective of another, is a dangerous enterprise for an honest thinker.

All 3 are monotheistic, so they certainly share this core. The Quran denies essential core ideas of Judaism as well as Christian ideas about Jesus himself.

To claim that I cannot be an honest thinker and think critically is self defeating. To be an honest thinker, don't I have to think critically? All three religions claim exclusive truth. How can I be an honest thinker and not think critically about these claims? You have thought critically and rejected all three. I have thought critically and embraced one. But we are both honest thinkers here, in that we admit biases and attempt to come to reasonable conclusions.

I believe Man does “need” authority over him. We need accountability. I find accountability to my self and my fellow man to be the most compelling and most rewarding, for all parties involved.

Why does man need authority over him? Toward what good end do we need accountability? Defined by who? How does it even matter? Though right and wrong seem to be deeply imbedded in most people, there are those who have a very twisted ethic. Who are we to judge?

I desire to transcend both my cultural and personal prejudices. Although this is in the end impossible to the fullest extent, I also believe this is the metaphorical Mt. Everest for a human being to aspire to.

This is admirable, but to use your metaphor, there must be a summit to reach. There must be something objective to reach beyond your cultural and personal prejudices. If there's not, then none of it matters.


I love the Sting song "Shape of My Heart". His worldview demands that everything is a product of chance and statistics. But his love for her demands that this has meaning. Religion is man's attempt to construct this meaning and it gives the illusion of meaning only. Humanistic morality is simply another version of the same. New boss - same as the old boss. It is man's attempt to find and define God. He is me. But what if there is a way where God came to us, attempts to reach us, to define us.


This is the only possible way to have actual meaning rather than a mere illusion of meaning. Christianity's claim is that this is exactly what God has done. This appeal is to events in history, which either did or did not occur. Jesus rose from the dead. All Christian claims hinge on the veracity of this event. I'm familiar with the evidence for this event in history. This evidence is helpful, even confirming. But I admit, I was looking for him. We find what we're looking for. I found him.