#20 "Dude, What Happened?" Post #3

SORRY TO USE SO MUCH SPACE. I WANTED TO BE AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE. MY RESPONSES ARE IN BLUE: -Jace

I really think some of the narrative of your journey would be helpful. The blood and guts, dirt and grime, joy and fulfillment of life experience contributes more to our journey that we sometimes realize. The decisions we make, the change we embrace - none of this happens in a vacuum. The narrative provides much of the context and shapes motivations and biases in a powerful way. I’m not going to give any more details about my personal life, past or present. I agree that those experiences are pivotal to any story, but this isn’t an intervention! (Hey, wait a minute.....)

You said:

"I 'lost' my faith, when I discovered the rest of the world. The history, the religions, the philosophies. There are many common threads. The greatest of which seems to be biology."

This  is where things get truly fascinating for me, for I think it demonstrates powerfully how we tend to find what we're looking for. While I would not claim to have discovered the rest of the world (there's a lot of world out there still to discover for me), I have had a good bit of exposure. I've traveled. I've read. I've made a practice of reading books I disagree with. I've lived life. So, in what is I think a very real sense, I've discovered the world too. What's fascinating to me is that this discovery has only served to deepen my faith. Now that says nothing about me or you being right. It just highlights the fact that we tend to find what we're looking for. Now if what we find is connected to what we're looking for, then outcomes are very connected to motivations. These motivations, more than the arguments we use to justify our conclusions, are truly the cause of those conclusions. I think.

I don’t disagree that you have “real world” experience. However, you have seen what you have seen through a particular prism. Whatever you do and wherever you go, you go and do as a Christian. You could argue that I have seen the world as a non-Christian, but that’s not factually true. I’ve watched the world from several different prejudices!

You said:

"This is a reasonable assumption. Particularly if you live in a time where science is a mystery. (Which would be right around the time the three major monotheisms were instigated). Regardless of any religious beliefs, it is an undeniable fact that we as humans have a desire and need to define our world. It is how we define ourselves! The most Atheistic scientist spends her life “defining” reality. This, I would argue, is derived from the same human impulse that creates religion. In other words, not an inclination to be despised, but like all tendencies, something to keep an eye on."

You previously quoted Pascal about the God shaped hole in our hearts. In this paragraph you call it the "human impulse" that moves us toward the religious and the spiritual. This explains much of human behavior and culture, doesn't it? There does seem to be a fairly universal movement toward finding meaning for our existence, discovering that our story exists within a larger story, an epic story, something cosmic and final. If there is a god, then that impulse was surely imbeded within us by this god to move us to seek this god. If there is no god, then this impulse is surely a cruel biological joke. 

I did not say it was an intrinsic desire for religion, I said it was an impulse in the human mind to “define reality”. The need to define parameters is not a “cruel biological joke”, it is a necessary evolutionary development; “Fire is hot, don’t touch fire. Fire is hot, use fire to cook.” Also, when horrible things happen (hurricanes, earthquakes, hunger, disease) we look for an answer as to why. This looking for an answer is how we come up with solutions to these problems; shelter, farming, medicine.

But the impulse itself does nothing to answer either possibility. It is a hunger. We must choose what we will eat. We decide what to do with that impulse. God's promise is that if we seek him, we will find him. The sad implication is that if we won't, we won't. We find what we're looking for. 

Maybe I’m not looking hard enough? Maybe we should get Him a bell or something.

And for those who are looking, there seems to be no end to the lengths God will go to make sure he's found. One of the interesting occurances in recent history involves the thousands of muslims who are coming to faith in Jesus because he is revealing himself to them in dreams. It's really amazing.

Sorry, but this sounds suspect. I sleep too. What do they eat before bed? I wish he would reveal himself to all the Muslims who seem hell bent on blowing themselves and everyone else up. That would be REALLY useful.

You also mentioned the era where science was a mystery as a time when mankind was more vulnerable to religion. I'm not sure I agree. Science is less a mystery now and religion abounds more than ever. Even the religion of science.

Good science is not a religion. I’m not sure religion “abounds more than ever” either. Certainly there are more people than ever. But that would mean there are more non-believers than ever as well.

I believe religion is cultural

Definitely.

Okay. So why is our cultural religion, Christianity, the one true path? How’d we get so darn lucky? How’d the billions of other folks get so unlucky?

I believe Faith is personal, but informed by cultural experience. (Meaning that our own psychological profile combined with our cultural biases will combine to give us our disposition toward certain tenets).

Agreed.

Again, then: why did us lucky American folk have such good fortune to be born in the time and place that has allowed us to see God’s revelation so clearly?

I believe the “Truth” is beyond the capabilities of the human mind. (By “Truth” I mean any final dogmatic assertion put forth by ANY faith.)

This is, itself, a final dogmatic assertion.

Touche, it is. But I will say “I believe” is a different thing than “I know”.

I believe ALL religions are man made enterprises that have served the powerful and subjugated the weak. Furthermore, they are an easy fix to finding a "purpose" in life.

This too is a very dogmatic assertion. And it seems a bit narrow. Can you not think of a single instance where Christians have served the weak and subjugated the powerful? Not one single Christian who has loved and sacrificed self for others? I can think of lots and lots.

Certainly there have been amazing, selfless people of ALL faiths who have done more for their fellow man than I ever will. However, the general history of “orthodox” faith has been used as a tool.

I believe ethical and moral behavior are intrinsically self-evident in a healthy human brain. (Therefore, assuring the health of human brains is in our collective best interest).

Agreed. C.S. Lewis deals extensively with this reality in "Mere Christianity", which I know you've read. That they are self evident is apparent.

I’m glad we can agree on this.

That we typically know the right but do the wrong also seems apparent. If we are to be held finally accountable for this, then there is a need for a savior. If we are not to be held finally accountable for this, then do what you will! But even this (no final accountability) falls flat to me, for a self-evident right and wrong that is meaningless appears to me as arbitrary.

I don’t think a self-evident right and wrong is rendered meaningless just because there is no threat of Hell. Murdering my neighbor or sleeping with his wife has immediate repercussions right here and right now. And am I only to alter my behavior under threat of reward and punishment? My dog behaves well, because it makes his life better. He is not afraid I’m going to destroy him. (well, he might be a little)

I believe the core of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are the same. Criticism of one, from the perspective of another, is a dangerous enterprise for an honest thinker.

All 3 are monotheistic, so they certainly share this core. The Quran denies essential core ideas of Judaism as well as Christian ideas about Jesus himself.

Hopefully you know I’m not saying all three believe the same things? My point was that they all originate from the same basic principles, the same general geography, and a very similar history. Abram, Abraham, Abrahim.

To claim that I cannot be an honest thinker and think critically is self defeating. To be an honest thinker, don't I have to think critically? All three religions claim exclusive truth. How can I be an honest thinker and not think critically about these claims? You have thought critically and rejected all three. I have thought critically and embraced one. But we are both honest thinkers here, in that we admit biases and attempt to come to reasonable conclusions.

My words seem to have not been clearly expressed. My point was that to accept one of these 3 as the “Truth” and reject the other 2 as false is, to me, bizarre. Hence my choice of letter D. Had you and I been born in Saudi Arabia I wonder if Jesus would come to you in a dream or if you would have been an Imam?

I believe Man does “need” authority over him. We need accountability. I find accountability to my self and my fellow man to be the most compelling and most rewarding, for all parties involved.

Why does man need authority over him? Toward what good end do we need accountability? Defined by who? How does it even matter? Though right and wrong seem to be deeply imbedded in most people, there are those who have a very twisted ethic. Who are we to judge?

I confess in my early twenties toying with “Relativism”. Then I realized I wasn’t an idiot. This is the first time you’ve tried the child psychology route in this blog! Cute, but no prize. I answered this pretty clearly in the second sentence. But I’ll bite, a little; Who are we to judge? We are sane, rational people, who desire a civil society to live our lives and raise our children in. Norway does a good job. In fact, the Scandinavian countries have the highest standard of living on earth. They also have the smallest amount of religion on earth.

I desire to transcend both my cultural and personal prejudices. Although this is in the end impossible to the fullest extent, I also believe this is the metaphorical Mt. Everest for a human being to aspire to.

This is admirable, but to use your metaphor, there must be a summit to reach. There must be something objective to reach beyond your cultural and personal prejudices. If there's not, then none of it matters.

Maybe that’s one of the route “problems” I have. I don’t need a summit to reach. Or a parade. Or a prize. Living a quality life that I enjoy is reward enough and a far greater achievement than most of human history; food, shelter, health, freedom, liberty....pretty good stuff.

I love the Sting song "Shape of My Heart". His worldview demands that everything is a product of chance and statistics. But his love for her demands that this has meaning. Religion is man's attempt to construct this meaning and it gives the illusion of meaning only. Humanistic morality is simply another version of the same. New boss - same as the old boss. It is man's attempt to find and define God. He is me. But what if there is a way where God came to us, attempts to reach us, to define us.

This is the only possible way to have actual meaning rather than a mere illusion of meaning. Christianity's claim is that this is exactly what God has done. This appeal is to events in history, which either did or did not occur. Jesus rose from the dead. All Christian claims hinge on the veracity of this event. I'm familiar with the evidence for this event in history. This evidence is helpful, even confirming. But I admit, I was looking for him. We find what we're looking for. I found him.

I like the Sting song too! You’ve mentioned this a few times here, “We find what we're looking for”.  What is it that you think I’ve been looking for?